It's deep, it's cold, it's hard to recover a body from.". cemeteries found within kilometers of your location will be saved to your photo volunteer list. Jim Byers told the Times, attributing the preservation to 35-degree water and water pressure. Share this memorial using social media sites or email. On July 10, 1994, Donald Christopher Windecker set out for a dive in Lake Tahoe. he asked. You are nearing the transfer limit for memorials managed by Find a Grave. Drowned: Mr Windecker had problems with his equipment and began to sink while surfacing at Lake Tahoe 17 years ago. Use Next and Previous buttons to navigate, or jump to a slide with the slide dots. It doesn't kill them, but they can't grow. According to police reports, his partner said Mr Windecker appeared to have problems with his equipment and began to sink while the two were surfacing. Latest: OckhamsRazor22; 2 minutes ago; He points out that the railroads were happy to pay the Chinese laborers because "they were a reliable workforce, so why alienate them? He may have had a heart attack or a stroke or maybe just ran out of air. Hopefully we'll determine what happened.". Year should not be greater than current year. Copyright IBTimes 2023. There are tons of stories surrounding bodies in the lake, and I hate to say it, but there probably are a couple bodies at the bottom of the lake. You need a Find a Grave account to continue. Windecker's body was reportedly still donning a wetsuit and was buckled into his scuba gear and air tank. "Lava tube connections between Lake Tahoe and other lakes are an urban myth," Byers said.Other stories about oddities beneath Lake Tahoe have been debunked by experts. "We'll be able to do a thorough autopsy. "We'll be able to do a thorough autopsy. As manager of this memorial you can add or update the memorial using the Edit button below. A remote-controlled mini-submarine with a robotic claw raised the remains July 27. Remove advertising from a memorial by sponsoring it for just $5. Your new password must contain one or more uppercase and lowercase letters, and one or more numbers or special characters. Accompanied by a friend,. There was an error deleting this problem. Make sure that the file is a photo. Just remember, you do not recognize the bodies in the water. No comments have so far been submitted. But McLaughlin has another reason for dismissing the rumor. Are you adding a grave photo that will fulfill this request? All photos appear on this tab and here you can update the sort order of photos on memorials you manage. It's called putrefaction. Jim Byers said. Just beyond the ledge where Windeckers body was discovered, the lake plunges to a depth of 1,645 feet. "He was an outgoing person. "All of our bodies have bacteria that live in them," she said. Police reports say his partner reported Windecker appeared to have problems with his equipment and began to sink while the two were surfacing. Byers said Lake Tahoe's 35-degree and increased pressure - Windecker 's body was found by a group of mixed gas divers on an underwater shelf approximately 265 feet below the surface - is responsible for the body's surprisingly physical condition. GREAT NEWS! Conventional scuba divers have to stop at about 100 feet. Cold-water crawfish cocaine. Accompanied by a friend, Windecker planned to swim to a depth of about 100 feet. Press J to jump to the feed. Were not investigating this as a homicide, Giant Woman Sculpture Makes Waves in GermanLake, 13-Year-Old Girl Finds Porn On New Cell Phone, These Are North Koreas 28 State-Approved Hairstyles, Mountain Dews Dub the Dew Online Poll Goes Horribly Wrong. Christopher Windecker is on Facebook. Include gps location with grave photos where possible. When talking about the diver who drowned, he forgot to mention that the mayor who was busted for cocaine trafficking was also rumored to be involved in prostitution. Bryan Golmitz of the El Dorado County Sheriff's Office said Windecker's body was well preserved after 17 years -- "He looked 90 percent like a person, the physical form was there, he was very present.". Is this railroad link the inspiration for the Tahoe tale of murder? Golmitz says its light shines about two to three feet wide. Its a little spooky., MORE: Giant Woman Sculpture Makes Waves in GermanLake. "His remains are in amazing physical condition," said Sheriff's Sgt. Facebook gives people the power to share and makes the world more open and connected. Translation on Find a Grave is an ongoing project. Hello! 2023 TIME USA, LLC. Are you sure that you want to report this flower to administrators as offensive or abusive? Found more than one record for entered Email, You need to confirm this account before you can sign in. Days after the July 23 sighting, a remote-controlled mini-submarine with a robotic claw pulled the scuba divers body from the underwater shelf on the lakes west side. He notes that during Frank Sinatra's time at Tahoe in the early 1960s, he and his associates were scrutinized closely by the authorities, making killings and body disposal risky. Ironic isn't it they just could have left him there when they found him. Search above to list available cemeteries. More:9 places you must eat and drink in North Lake Tahoe, More:Tahoe's historic Cal Neva Lodge set for renovation; old cabins torn down. It was pretty scary for them. This was not the case with Windecker, who was covered head to toe in a wet suit with gloves and boots. The recovery occurred on the lake's west side, near Rubicon Point.Officials delayed releasing Windecker's name until dental records confirmed his identity. Hopefully we'll determine what happened," Byers said. Dental records were used to identify Donald Christopher Windecker, from Reno,. Some in the region insist that famed diver and naturalist Jacques Cousteau explored the lake in a mini-submarine in the mid-1970s and emerged pale and shaken. Windecker was first reported missing in July 1994 when he was scuba diving in Lake Tahoe with a friend, said sheriff's Lt. Bryan Golmitz. Other persistent tales claim that those lurking below include the bodies of 19th century Chinese railroad laborers and mobsters, along with a lake monster named Tahoe Tessie.. When all was said and done, they didn't want to have to deal with paying them and giving them promised citizenship so they took the immigrants out to the middle of the lake and tied them together in big groups and weighed them down and dumped them in. Windecker's body was still wearing the wetsuit, weight belt and air tank he had on July 10, 1994, when the 44-year-old former city planner from Reno, Nevada went scuba diving in the lake with a friend. According to police reports, his partner said Windecker appeared to have problems with his equipment and began to sink while the two were surfacing. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Donald Christopher Windecker disappeared on July 10, 1994 after diving into the famously deep mountain lake, which plunges to a depth of about 1,645 feet. In cold water, the lower temperatures make them relatively inactive. A recent article talked about how fish eggs survived being eaten by ducks and hatched. Donaldpassed away on month day1994, at age 44 at death place, California. The partner attempted to help him but was forced to the surface when he ran low on air. Donald Christopher Windecker's body was recovered and identified this month 17 years after the Reno city planner died in a Tahoe diving accident. Four more divers remain missing in the same area, which is infamous for swallowing up victims. TIL the water of Lake Tahoe is so cold that when the body of Donald Christopher Windecker was found 17 years after he went missing, it was preserved enough to conduct an autopsy and determine his cause of death. ", Other versions name the filmmaker as Jacques Cousteau, who is reported to have said "the world is not ready" for what is down there or, alternately, "a stop was quickly put on the mission by some powerful people.". Now for the two myths: Lake Tahoe is a dumping ground for victims of mob hits and Chinese workers. Jacques Cousteau went on a dive there and allegedly said the world isnt ready for whats down there., The main theory is that Pacific Union (the company that built the railroad) dumped the bodies of all the Chinese workers in the lake and Cousteau found the mass grave preserved by the cold, the pressure, and the low oxygen. Verify and try again. It was then recovered by sheriffs officials with the use of a remote-operated submersible vehicle July 27. A remote-controlled mini-submarine with a robotic claw raised the remains July 27. ", He points out that the transcontinental railroad was completed in 1869 and "Surviving photographic documentation and (Central Pacific Railroad) Chinese payrolls confirm that large numbers of Chinese were still on the CPRR payrolls as successful track workers well into the 1870s.". We found 3 records for Christopher Windecker in DE, PA and NJ. LOS ANGELES The body of a diver who disappeared 17 years ago in Lake Tahoes deep, frigid waters has been found, authorities in El Dorado County, Calif., confirmed yesterday. For more information about the content services offered by McClatchy-Tribune Information Services (MCT), visit www.mctinfoservices.com, e-mail services@mctinfoservices.com, or call 866-280-5210 (outside the United States, call +1 312-222-4544), Divers body found in Tahoe after 17 years, Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window), Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to email a link to a friend (Opens in new window), Click to share on Reddit (Opens in new window). The sponsor of a memorial may add an additional. Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot concedes defeat, Southern California home sales fall to all-time low, Denver just got a direct flight to this Caribbean island known for music history and vegetarian cooking, NYC Mayor Adams dismisses need to separate church and state, declares himself a servant of God, Zero-calorie sweetener linked to heart attack and stroke, study finds, Do Not Sell/Share My Personal Information. Jennifer Hollander explains why they often don't float. You can also continue the discussion on TIMEs Facebook page and on Twitter at @TIME. The body of Donald Christopher Windecker was found by a deep diver wedged inside of a rock crevice in Lake Tahoe, near Rubicon Point, on July 24. Do you hate foreplay? South lake tahoe local here! All Marriage & Divorce results for Donald Windecker. Submit interesting and specific facts about something that you just found out here. No animated GIFs, photos with additional graphics (borders, embellishments. Try again. "Depending on who is telling the story, Cousteau either encountered a Loch Ness-type monster that locals have dubbed "Tahoe Tessie" or came upon a bunch of dead people.Among those said to populate Lake Tahoe's dark depths are Chinese laborers who helped build the railroad across the Sierra Nevada in the 1860s. Flowers added to the memorial appear on the bottom of the memorial or here on the Flowers tab. Farm Heroes Saga, the #4 Game on iTunes. Please ensure you have given Find a Grave permission to access your location in your browser settings. A system error has occurred. Photos larger than 8Mb will be reduced. Tracey Cox asks men the 9 sex questions women want HONEST answers to. Donald Christopher Windecker. Thank you for fulfilling this photo request. His body was protected from marine life and subject only to the slow work of cold bacteria. Although El Dorado County authorities say he had no close relatives, those who counted him as a friend are thankful this mystery has been resolved. There is 1 volunteer for this cemetery. Save to an Ancestry Tree, a virtual cemetery, your clipboard for pasting or Print. The crawfish immediately went to the deepest coldest parts of the lake, and crawfish will eat anything. Would dismantling Interstate 980 repair damage to Black neighborhoods? People forget Northeast California exists, too. Record information. Try again later. We are no longer accepting comments on this article. He spoke out against banning girls education. He never returned. Use the links under See more to quickly search for other people with the same last name in the same cemetery, city, county, etc. The Taliban silenced him. Are you sure that you want to delete this memorial? But Cousteau never explored the lake. Really? The well-preserved body of Donald Christopher Windecker was discovered July 23 on an underwater shelf, 265 feet below the surface. In "The Godfather 2," a character is killed on Lake Tahoe and dumped overboard. Please try again later. Besides, McLaughlin says, the mob was more focused in Southern Nevada and "it's easier to bury a body out in the desert, which precludes the risk of the body washing up on the shore.". Select the best result to find their address, phone number, relatives, and public records. Other crustaceans certainly do. I mean I assumed stuff went down over there just based on The Godfather Part II movie, Tahoe was a big area for the first transcontinental railroad. View Chris Windecker results including current phone number, address, relatives, background check report, and property record with Whitepages. Maybe thats why everythings shrouded in mystery there. When such stories happen, myths about bodies. ", Email yourquestions for "Ask the RGJ" by emailing ybeasley@rgj.com, Something else that can break down dead bodies in Lake Tahoe is marine life, which brings to mind the not-tasteful quote from the book "Animal Crossing -- Wild World": "Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Are YOU at risk of being cancelled? Windecker was first reported missing in July 1994 when he was scuba diving in Lake Tahoe with a friend, said sheriff's Lt. Bryan Golmitz. Rescue divers attempted to locate him at the time but were unable to do so. But, very obviously he was deceased.. Failed to report flower. A remote-controlled mini-submarine with a robotic claw brought the remains to the surface on July 27, and dental records were used to confirm Windecker's identity. Try again later. Tales persist that a longtime Tahoe fire chief responded to a drowning call and found the body of a well-preserved Native American girl, fully clothed in a 19th century ceremonial dress, floating in the lake. Family members linked to this person will appear here. Are you sure that you want to remove this flower? "It was pretty scary for them," Byers said. By Kai Ma. At Lake Tahoe, a scuba diver's body is recovered after 17 yearsThe well-preserved remains of Donald Christopher Windecker are discovered on an underwater shelf. At least, there was until people introduced kokanee salmon to the rivers, and then crawfish as a food source. "We'll be able to do a thorough autopsy. Lake Tahoe is on the California-Nevada border. View Source Suggest Edits Memorial Photos Flowers Created by: No Guts, No Glory Added: 9 Aug 2011 Find a Grave Memorial ID: 74652674 Windecker reportedly suffered difficulty with his equipment and began to sink. Try again later. Sorry, this post was deleted by the person who originally posted it. Give a fish a man, and he'll eat for weeks!". Please complete the captcha to let us know you are a real person. In attendance was his widow, Mary Windecker, son, Marcus Windecker, daughter, Claire Windecker, brother & wife, John & Lane Windecker, sisters, Geri and Corey Windecker and several close family friends. His mother's maiden name is Wilson. Mr Windecker, who was 44 when he died, was a planner for the city of Reno. The bacteria produce gases as waste: carbon dioxide, methane, hydrogen sulfide. Jim Byers. They often relate to the facts that dead bodies tend not to float there and, because of the cold temperatures, they stay preserved longer. "They were wondering, 'What's this person doing down here?'". El Dorado County Sheriff's spokesman Sgt. or don't show this againI am good at figuring things out. All rights reserved. 2023 www.dispatch.com. Scott Adams faces 'consequence culture' as U.S. newspapers drop Dilbert, Tom Cruise's 'ditching' of Suri showcased by Judd Apatow's 'co-parenting' joke, ex-Scientology exec says. By Rachel Quigley Updated: 21:37 EST, 8 August 2011. The body of a scuba diver recovered from Lake Tahoe has been identified as Donald Christopher Windecker, who disappeared while diving 17 years ago. McLaughlin also finds this rumor preposterous. The body of a scuba diver recovered from Lake Tahoe has been identified as a man who disappeared 17 years ago. Best quality coke is made from crawfish. Jim Byers told Reuters. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. "If you've got Chinese working on the construction of your railroad up around Truckee near the pass, why take them all the way to Lake Tahoe?" If you notice a problem with the translation, please send a message to [emailprotected] and include a link to the page and details about the problem. El Dorado County officials told the Times that Windecker had no close relatives, but Mike Ramos, who once worked with Windecker for the city of Reno, told the Gazette-Journal that Windecker had a wife and two small children, who have since moved out of state: Ramos said that the morning Windecker left to go diving, he left his son a candy bar and note thanking him for being a good boy. Best Match Powered by Whitepages Premium AGE 20s Chris Windecker Wilmington, DE Aliases Christopher Mark Windecker Christophe Mark Windecker View Full Report Addresses Foxhill Ln, Wilmington, DE The name of Donald Christopher Windecker was released today Please check your email and click on the link to activate your account. Are you saying those bodies could be in the lake in relation to his cocaine trafficking? Oops, something didn't work. There was a problem getting your location. The body of a scuba diver recovered from Lake Tahoe has been identified as Donald Christopher Windecker, who disappeared while diving 17 years ago. On July 10, 1994, Donald Christopher Windecker set out for a dive in Lake Tahoe. Close this window, and upload the photo(s) again. The body of a scuba diver recovered from Lake Tahoe has been identified as a man who disappeared 17 years ago. Authorities at Lake Tahoe on Monday solved the mystery of a scuba diver who disappeared 17 years ago in the mountain lakes deep, frigid waters. Windecker had died 17 years previously while scuba diving and due to the lake's cold. His companion tried to help but began running out of air and was forced to surface. U.S., Newspapers.com Marriage Index, 1800s-current. At the time of his disappearance, Windecker was a 44-year-old former city planner from Reno and a married father of two young children. Israel beefs up troops after unprecedented settler rampage, Ukrainian refugees in Poland will now be charged to stay in state-funded housing, This Colombian town is dimming its lights to attract more tourists to view the night sky, Kneel and apologize!: 76 years after island-wide massacre, Taiwan continues to commemorate and debate the tragedy. Sgt. Are you sure that you want to delete this photo? Lava tube connections between Lake Tahoe and other lakes are an urban myth, Byers said. CARSON CITY, Nev. (AP) The body of a scuba diver recovered from Lake Tahoe has been identified as a man who disappeared 17 years ago. Donald Christopher Windecker's well-preserved body was found July 23 on an underwater shelf, 265 feet below the surface, The Los Angeles Times reports. A remote-controlled mini-submarine equipped with a robotic claw raised the remains on July 27. "Windecker's body was discovered by a group of "mixed gas" divers exploring cliff walls, Byers said.Mixed gas divers can safely descend to about 350 feet without suffering nitrogen narcosis, or "rapture of the depths," among other problems. A remote-controlled mini-submarine with a robotic claw brought the remains to the surface on July 27, and dental records were used to confirm Windecker's identity. "Something like that you don't forget too soon.". Windeckers body was clad in a wetsuit and buckled into a weight belt and air tank. Miss Manners: I shouldn't call because the phone scares people? Accompanied by a friend, Windecker planned to swim to a depth of about 100 feet. O. ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 28. Almost two decades later, an unidentified group of mixed-gas divers discovered Windeckers body while exploring cliff walls almost 300 feet below the surface. cemeteries found in will be saved to your photo volunteer list. Dental records confirmed it was Windecker. "His remains are in amazing physical condition," El Dorado County Sheriff's Sgt. The well-preserved body of Donald Christopher Windecker was discovered July?23 on an underwater shelf 265 feet below the surface. PRX is a 501(c)(3) organization recognized by the IRS: #263347402. They become inactive. Windeckers body was discovered in 265 feet of water by a recreational diver in late July off Rubicon Point along Tahoes west shore. Just beyond the ledge where Windeckers body was found, the lake plunges to a depth of 1,645 feet. Im struggling to make the connection between the last sentence and the rest. Copyright 2023 IBTimes LLC. Until now. Accompanied by a friend, he set out for a dive on July 10, 1994, and never returned.By Bob Pool, Los Angeles TimesAugust 9, 2011Authorities at Lake Tahoe on Monday solved the mystery of a scuba diver who disappeared 17 years ago in the mountain lake's deep, frigid waters.The well-preserved body of Donald Christopher Windecker was discovered July 23 on an underwater shelf, 265 feet below the surface. Failed to delete memorial. Thanks for using Find a Grave, if you have any feedback we would love to hear from you. So it's really a story about hooker, line and sinker. There is a problem with your email/password. They were wondering, Whats this person doing down here? Byers said. Weve updated the security on the site. Windecker reportedly experienced difficulty with his equipment and began to sink. Kai Ma is a TIME contributor. It has swallowed divers before, and some remain missing. Learn more about merges. She's a biology professor at the University of Nevada, Reno. Your California Privacy Rights/Privacy Policy. The divers remains, still contained in a wetsuit and buckled with scuba gear and an air tank, were in amazing physical condition and remarkably preserved, Sheriffs Sgt. The name of Donald Christopher Windecker was released Monday by the El Dorado County sheriff's office. Sorry! His companion tried to help, but began running out of air and had to surface. Even if it was just three or four guys you didn't pay, that (news) would ripple through the workforce.". All rights reserved. We never get an interesting case in the suburbs of south Orange County, meanwhile you got a fricking Loch Tess Monster. ). "It's been a long time. And authorities say they have used sonar and mini-subs to map the lakes bottom and never found such a graveyard. Former Nevada state historian Guy Rocha wrote in 2006 in the Reno Gazette-Journal: "The truth is that Philippe Cousteau, Jacques' grandson, visited Lake Tahoe in April 2002, but there is no record of Jacques seeing the jewel of the Sierra, much less his being involved in an underwater expedition. Please enter your email address and we will send you an email with a reset password code. CA - Lake Tahoe, scuba diver's body found, Jul'11 - Donald Windecker. Sorry, this post was deleted by the person who originally posted it. Harriette Cole: I don't want the neighbor's kids at my house, Dear Abby: My wife said she doesn't like it, but it's part of my life, Ask Amy: I feel guilty for not speaking up about my co-worker's activities, Ask Amy: I'm your cabin housekeeper, and you apparently have no idea what I do. Oops, we were unable to send the email. Despite rescue attempts, the body was never found. Mr Windecker's body was discovered in 265 feet of water by a recreational diver in late July off Rubicon Point along Tahoe's west shore. Just was out there this past summer visiting and had an amazing lunch at Sunnyside. Why not be the first to send us your thoughts, Windecker was accompanied by a. He dismissed speculation that Windecker had gone undiscovered for so long because his body had been caught in underwater tunnels that legend says connects Lake Tahoe with Pyramid Lake northeast of Reno. Some Tahoe locals claim dozens of bodies can be found in the lakes deep waters. He grew up in Jamaica and moved to the United States at the age of sixteen and settled in San Diego, California. Thanks for your help! This flower has been reported and will not be visible while under review. ' he said. Try again later. Marriage & Divorce. Reputation management expert reveals why it doesn't just happen to famous people - and how your social media posts put you at risk, Air in East Palestine IS toxic: Scientists find 'higher than normal' concentrations of NINE potentially harmful chemicals - despite EPA ruling train derailment zone was 'safe', King Charles told Harry and Meghan 'he was evicting them from Frogmore Cottage days after duke's memoir Spare came out, leaving them without a home in the UK and he has offered the property on the Windsor estate to Prince Andrew', 'Freedom, happiness, clarity, space, love': Prince Harry describes his life in five words and reveals he 'wants to be an elephant when he's reincarnated' in unseen footage from US TV interview to plug his book, The best seat in the house! "They found Donald Christopher Windecker, though. Edit your search or learn more. News reports at the time of Windeckers disappearance described him as a 44-year-old former city planner from Reno who set out for a dive on July 10, 1994. Quickly see who the memorial is for and when they lived and died and where they are buried. All Access Digital offer for just 99 cents! I guess it's kind of surprising, especially after all these years," Vern Kloos, a Reno city planner, said. based on information from your browser. In 2011, the body of Donald Christopher Windecker was recovered from Lake Tahoe, found 350 feet underwater. Antioch police seek help to ID woman who allegedly fired gun inside store, swiped liquor, Maxwells appeals arguments mirror earlier claims, Shes looking to get smoked; Messages reveal aggressive threats from suspect on morning of San Carlos beheading, Antioch council ends remote-meeting options for members and the public. Woman with tuberculosis to be arrested this Friday and drugged against her will after refusing treatment for a year - so is it government overreach or fair enough? The divers went down to explore cliff walls, but found a person instead. Edit Search New Search Filters (1) To get better results, add more information such as Birth Info, Death Info and Locationeven a guess will help. Dear Abby: Why do they imply my husband is a freak? Copyright (c) 2011, Los Angeles Times Distributed by McClatchy-Tribune Information Services. Use Escape keyboard button or the Close button to close the carousel. Specifically: His ashes spread over Lake Tahoe, https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/74652674/donald-christopher-windecker. The body was located 265' (80 meters) below the surface. Please contact Find a Grave at [emailprotected] if you need help resetting your password. Sign up and stay up to date with our daily newsletter. To see more of the Los Angeles Times, or to subscribe to the newspaper, go to http://www.latimes.com. He said Tahoe killings could be possible but no one has come forward with even basic details that could be investigated, such as who was killed. [emailprotected]Copyright 2011, Los Angeles Times~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Read the fascinating news story of Mr. Windecker's recovery and saw your post on Find A Grave. Dental records were used to identify Donald Christopher Windecker, from Reno, who was reported missing in July 1994 when he was diving with a friend at the lake. Just beyond the ledge where Windecker's body was found, the lake plunges to a depth of 1,645 feet.News reports at the time of Windecker's disappearance described him as a 44-year-old former city planner from Reno who set out for a dive on July 10, 1994. Hard to tell, but if hundreds of bodies are down there, no one has found them -- despite the huge money-making possibilities from such a historic find. The well-preserved body of Donald Christopher Windecker was discovered July 23 on an underwater shelf, 265 feet below the surface. Tahoe is the second-deepest lake in the U.S., behind Oregon's Crater Lake, which has a maximum depth of 1949 feet. Between Lake Tahoe and dumped overboard or Print time of his disappearance Windecker... Send you an email with a reset password code Hollander donald christopher windecker wiki why they often do n't forget too.... The world more open and connected to remove this flower to administrators as offensive or abusive two decades,... Still donning a wetsuit and buckled into a weight belt and air tank summer visiting had! Windecker, who was 44 when he ran low on air planner said. Make the connection between the last sentence and the rest have bacteria that live in them, El! 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